Devil's advocate Interview of Naveen Patnaik by Karan Thapar

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Has the Orissa government failed to protect the Christian community? Karan Thapar asked this to Orissa Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik.

Karan Thapar: Nearly 50 days have passed since the killing of Swami Laxmananda Saraswati and yet Christians remain in fear for their lives. There are still reports of people being killed and houses being destroyed. Are you unable or unwilling to restore order?

Naveen Patnaik: As a matter of fact for the last eight or nine days there have been no violent incidents in Kandhamal district at all.

Karan Thapar: But they have moved to the next Boudh district. On Wednesday, 10 houses were destroyed and on October 3 a hundred houses were burnt down.

Naveen Patnaik: Well, it wasn’t as many numbers as that. Let me explain to you that in the forested area next to Kandhamal—this has just happened virtually on the border of the Kandhamal district (and) into the district of Boudh.

Kandhamal district is a hilly area, a heavily forested area and difficult to police at normal times because the villages are small, remote and far from each other.

There has also been a very long-standing problem between tribals of the area and scheduled castes and other persons.

Karan Thapar: Your critics say that you are using sociology as an excuse. No matter what the ethnic divisions maybe, the killing of Christians—some would call it a massacre—is simply not justified. You have not stopped it.

Naveen Patnaik: I can only tell you that it is most unfortunate that this communal violence has taken place. Of course, it has to condemned by all of us.

Karan Thapar: Can you say you have done everything you could to control the violence or will you concede that mistakes have been made and perhaps at times you have not been as tough as you should have been?

Naveen Patnaik: The communal violence began after the night of August 23 when the Swamiji was killed. Before that there has been a long-standing ethnic divide between two castes in that district.

Karan Thapar: Absolutely. Let’s take the events as they happened after the night of August 23.

Within 24 hours you permitted (Vishwa Hindu Parishad leader) Praveen Togadia to take a funeral procession of the Swamiji’s body through almost 150 km of your state, knowing that this would inflame passions and provoke. This is exactly what it did. Can you concede that was a mistake?

Naveen Patnaik: Firstly, Togadia was in no procession at all. The Swamiji and he are both members of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad. He (Togadia) went just to attend the funeral and as far as the procession is concerned, action has been taken at the district level. The Superintendent of Police has been suspended.

Karan Thapar: But the point is that procession was almost a replica of what happened in Gujarat in 2002. You knew that from experience that it would inflame passions and lead to violence. Why was that procession not stopped? Why was it permitted in the first place?

Naveen Patnaik: I repeat again that the Swamiji was killed on the night of August 23. The procession began—it was a very, very volatile situation. You do understand that we had asked the Centre for many more forces, which didn’t come till five days later.

But whatever mistakes were made as far as the procession is concerned, it could have turned much more violent and action was taken against certain people concerned.

Karan Thapar: Your Deputy leader in the Rajya Sabha speaking on the Network18 programme ‘War of Words’ said perhaps permitting that procession was a misjudgement. Would you concede as much?

Naveen Patnaik: Action has been taken against certain people for that procession to have taken place and let me tell you that as far as the violence is concerned more than a thousand people have been arrested—whether they are individuals, belonging to groups or even to fundamentalist organisations.

Karan Thapar: Many of those arrests have actually happened in the last week and not earlier.

Naveen Patnaik: I am sorry but you are wrong there. Arrests have been taking place from the very beginning of the violence.

Karan Thapar: You are also the Home Minister of the state, which means that you are doubly responsible for the police. How do you account for the fact that perhaps for the first three-four days police stood by, permitting the VHP to attack Christians.

Even when an Orissa bandh (shutdown) was declared, you may not have had sufficient force from outside the state but you didn’t even redeploy the force you had within Orissa.

Naveen Patnaik: The forces were redeployed as quickly as they could be. You must remember it was an all-state bandh for that particular bandh on August 25, but we did deploy the forces. As much (forces) as we could keep in Kandhamal district we did.

Karan Thapar: Did you move forces to Kandhamal?

Naveen Patnaik: Of course we did—very much so. As far as the state government is concerned we did move forces. If we had adequate forces why do you think we were requesting the Central Government, asking them to send forces. Which they did after five days.

Karan Thapar: Let me give you an example of what people consider the incompetence of the Orissa Police force. ‘The Hindu’ reports that handwritten eyewitness accounts of the killings naming the alleged killers were sent by registered post to Balguda police station and the envelopes were returned with the following messages written on them: ‘addressee refused, have returned back’.

What sort of police force hands back such evidence and such material?

Naveen Patnaik: Let me tell you as far as the violence is concerned, the Crime Branch of the Orissa Police is investigating all those matters and we have also called for a judicial enquiry. All those who are found guilty stringent action will be taken against them.

Karan Thapar: The point is that Sabyasachi Panda, head of the local Naxalite force, who has admitted that he was responsible for the killing of Swami Laxmananda, has also revealed that the People’s Liberation Army left behind two letters at the Swamiji’s ashram accepting responsibility and that your government suppressed the letters.

Those letters could have defused the situation. Why did you suppress them?

Naveen Patnaik: That is absolutely incorrect. Why should the police suppress the letters? There is a police investigation and there is a judicial enquiry. Three persons have been arrested for the killing of the Swamiji. The Crime Branch is investigating the matter; let them get to their finding. I am sure they will get to the truth.

Karan Thapar: You are laying a lot of stress on the process the police is going through. Let me then ask you a simple question about the nun who was raped in Nuagoan (village in Kandhamal). How do you account for the fact that for one month your police took no action? For 38 days they were incapable of collecting the medical report.

It seems to the world outside that your state acted when ‘The Hindu’ had broken the story.

Naveen Patnaik: As far as the crime against the nun is concerned, it is a shameful and barbaric crime. The moment we came to know about this the officer-in-charge (of the local police station) was suspended. Persons have been arrested for that crime.

Karan Thapar: You say the moment you came to know about it, but forgive me Chief Minister that is not true. The Superior General of the Missionaries wrote you a letter within 24 hours pointing out what had happened. The Archbishop of Cuttack says he personally met you and told you. (CPI-M leader) Brinda Karat has gone on record to say that she told you. You yourself, therefore, knew almost one or two days after the rape itself.

Naveen Patnaik: Let me clarify that the Archbishop has not spoken to me after the events began in Kandhamal after August 23.

Karan Thapar: What about Sister Nirmala (Superior General of the Missionaries of Charity), Brinda Karat?

Naveen Patnaik: Sister Nirmala’s letter is much later, and after that appropriate steps have been taken. Brinda Karat spoke to me about victims of the riots.

Karan Thapar: Are you saying to me that the claim made by these people in the Press is incorrect?

Naveen Patnaik: Let me be quite clear: the Archbishop has not met me at all. Brinda Karat did meet me and she told me of the problems of the victims in the violence-hit area.

Karan Thapar: But not about the raped nun?

Naveen Patnaik: Not about the raped nun. She spoke about the problems of the people there. I immediately, within half an hour, sent the local Collector to see to their problems.

Sister Nirmala’s letter came much later. In fact Sister Nirmala met me and she said she had faith in the government and in the steps she had taken. I have a letter from her but it came much later (after the rape).

Karan Thapar: Let me put to you what the church seems to have concluded about you. Two weeks ago, on this programme, the Archbishop of Delhi had this to say about you: Naveen Patnaik has not done even the minimum that is required to protect citizens.

In other words he is accusing you of almost dereliction of duty.

Naveen Patnaik: This is the first time I am hearing what you are saying about the Archbishop of Delhi. Let me make my point of view clear. From the very start of these horrible and shameful incidents of communal violence my government has taken whatever steps it possibly could to bring normalcy and peace back to that disturbed district. For the last week or more there has been normalcy and it has been brought under control.

Karan Thapar: You say you have taken every step to restore normalcy. In fact the truth is that reconversions to Hinduism, a flagrant violation of your own state laws, are openly happening in Orissa today and your government is doing nothing to stop them. Why?

Naveen Patnaik: We are against anything which is illegal.

Karan Thapar: But why are they not being stopped?

Naveen Patnaik: Registers are going to the victims—to sign whatever complains they may have.

Karan Thapar: Chief Minister, you are taking a very technical responsibility to a situation which requires urgent action. You are talking of registers—the newspapers are widely aware of the reconversions. You seem to be unaware of them.

Naveen Patnaik: Obviously, we have heard of that and we will do everything legal to stop all of this.

Karan Thapar: How quickly will you act?

Naveen Patnaik: We have taken steps. You do understand that there is lot of force in Kandhamal district to maintain law and order.

Karan Thapar: Do you know what they say in Delhi? They say Naveen Patnaik is taking sides, he seems to be siding with Bajrang Dal and VHP against the Christians which is why he is talking in technical terms. They say he talks of excuses and delays, he talks of conditions of roads which don't let him send the police force to Kandhamal, but he doesn't act.

Naveen Patnaik: When you say that, it’s completely incorrect because among the thousand people, roughly a thousand people who have been arrested, many of them belong to the organisations that you have just named.

Karan Thapar: You mean the Bajrang Dal and the VHP?

Naveen Patnaik: Yes.

Karan Thapar: The law of the land and Constitution continued to be violated in Orissa. If that violation continues in Orissa, and if you are not capable of stopping it, why shouldn't your government be dismissed?

Naveen Patnaik: We are making every effort to stop it. I don't want to make comparisons but there have been violent incidents and communal incidents in other parts of India. I don't see why the government of Orissa should be targeted.

Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. You face perhaps the most serious challenge of the eight years and seven months you have been Chief Minister. Are you honestly up to it?

Naveen Patnaik: Let me tell you another thing. In the eight years and seven months you have mentioned, there have been two communal incidents in my state. One at the end of the last year in Kandhamal district and again to be repeated in Kandhamal now.

I told you earlier there are ethnic problems which took a communal turn after the killing of the Swami.

Karan Thapar: Before Kandhamal you were considered a modern, urbane and secular Chief Minister. After Kandhamal you are either considered incompetent or a puppet in the hands of the Bajrang Dal.

Naveen Patnaik: I would consider those points of view inaccurate. I have told you how the Government has tried to handle the situation, both strongly and with a great deal of sympathy and humanity as far as the victims are concerned.

Karan Thapar: You say you acted with sympathy. The Archbishop of Cuttack says the statement you issued after visiting Khandamal didn’t even mention a word about the Christians killed, the thousands of homes that have been destroyed and tens of thousands of people who have been rendered homeless and are living in refugee camps.

You didn’t have a word to say about them, he says.

Naveen Patnaik: Let me clarify that I went to Kandhamal for a very short while after these incidents began. I visited burnt homes, damaged churches and I went to refugee camps.

Karan Thapar: But why was there sympathy for them?

Naveen Patnaik: Of course there is sympathy for them, and I have made that clear from the very first day. Since August 23 I have been appealing for peace among the people. I have been as humane as one ought to be.

Karan Thapar: You know what the Christian community say about you. They say if there was one leader in the NDA who they thought would protect Christians it was Naveen Patnaik. They thought you have Western education and a broad Catholic outlook.

But in letting down the Christians you have actually betrayed your own values.

Naveen Patnaik: I feel I have not let down anyone in my state, whichever community they belong to. Every bone in my body is secular and I don’t think any of those bones have been damaged.

Karan Thapar: Your critics say you are scared of taking action against the Bajrang Dal and the VHP because he needs the Sangh Parivar’s support in the elections.

He has probably done a Faustian pact; he is deliberately turning a blind eye to what they are doing because he needs their support in the elections.

Naveen Patnaik: The BJD and the BJP have had an alliance for more than 10 years. In that period there have been a number of elections and we have remained the majority party by far.

Karan Thapar: But you do not have majority on your own.

Naveen Patnaik: You do understand the mathematics of seat sharing, but we are sanguine with our victories in any election.

Karan Thapar: Many people today are comparing you to Narendra Modi. Many people today are comparing Kandhamal to the Gujarat massacre of 2002, can you accept that?

Naveen Patnaik: I think that comparison cannot be made rationally by anyone.

Karan Thapar: Have you let yourself down? The world knows you as the modern, secular people. Today, as the Chief Minister, you are emerging as someone who is conniving with the Bajrang Dal to let the killings of Christians continue.

Have you let yourself down?

Naveen Patnaik: I have to repeat to you again that people, after these violent incidents, from that organisation have been arrested. My government is trying to bring peace and tranquillity back to the troubled area and will continue to work towards that. What some people may believe I cannot help that. My job is to see that peace, security and progress remain in the state.

Karan Thapar: Chief Minister, a pleasure talking to you.

Naveen Patnaik: Thank you.